Okay. I’m gonna learn so many lessons off this. Okay. When do I get a divorce? When should I get a divorce? Am I allowed to get a divorce? What steps do I take in getting a divorce? Carrie? I feel like christians fall into two camps when it comes to divorce, especially in the Christ world. Don’t. Or we’ve fallen out of love. It’s better for the kids. They don’t have to grow up in a non loving family. And God wants me to be happy. I feel like those are the two extremes. That’s either super easy or super hard. And you and I have talked about it before. Most people don’t live in the extremes. The truth is normally in the middle, not in those extremes.

But I definitely, when I made episode one, which is my most listened to podcast episode of whether or not should I get a divorce. That means people google that a lot. People listen for podcasts, YouTube videos of that question. It’s the question christians struggle with, and I think we struggle differently. So I was talking to both edges. Part of me was talking to the people who were like, it’s a sin. I can’t, no matter what. And they endure too long. And then I also believe there’s people on the other side who are just like, well, he did this, or whatever. He always does this. She always does this, or she did that one thing. And they’re easy, quick to leave. And so I spoke to both edges. I don’t know. There’s a lot of gray in the middle, sure. But what a tough place to be when your life is so miserable that that value made to your friends or family and to God, and you’re willing to break it because of the pain you’re enduring, or at least you feel you’re enduring. What a tough spot to be. Yeah. We’Ve both been there. All I can do is agree with that. Yeah, it’s horrible. I call it the staring at the ceiling moments of looking out the window, crying, praying. And I think my thought was, who can I help during that time? Right? Who can I help? And so let’s start with the. Because this fits really close to your story. Let’s talk to the people, men or women, who are enduring pain.

You said that you were challenged by your friends like it’s time. But what can trigger someone who’s getting beaten, verbally abused? All the things to say. I don’t have to put up with this because sometimes they believe that God is going to, like their denomination, Catholicism. I can name a couple of other protestant denominations. They’re like, well, I mean, this is a sin. If this didn’t happen or this didn’t happen, you don’t have permission from God. Which I, or even a spouse is having affairs or unaffair. You even hear it in the church where it’s like, well, no, you should. Put up with that. Yeah. There’s so many caveats. There’s so many caveats. But what do you do? How do we, not that anybody’s going to listen to us over their pastor. Unfortunately. Unfortunately. Because some of those have their flawed theology. Sure. I would say a lot do one because of their denominational influences and, or they’re pastors who are married and they don’t even know. So their argument is, well, if I suck it up, you suck it up. Yeah. I mean, I think if you’re in that kind of a situation, I think widening your circle. Right. Like talking to people that you really trust. Yeah.

And it’s so funny you say this. I’m back up for a second. When you have a podcast, when you market a product, whatever. When I thought about this, I have an avatar. I don’t even know if I’ve ever told you this. I have an avatar in my mind, a person that I’m talking to. Yeah, sure. And I made this for both genders because I feel like the Bible is for both genders. Isn’t it funny how we saw women’s group and men’s group and people are like, well, here’s how God wants men to act. Here’s how God wants women. I’m like, I think the rules are the same for 95% of the Bible is written for both of us. Sure. So when people talk about God may be into it, I don’t know. Does yours include loving on widows and orphans? Well, mine does too. So how about we’re both supposed to. We’ll just both do that, right? How about we both. So I have a real beef with that. Anyway, I’ve already lost my train of thought. I literally have lost my. I went down a rabbit trail and did not pull back. But this idea that gender, that’s what it was. The pastor being a male and not having experienced things, it’s this idea of like, well, God is. My job is to preach truth. God’s up here telling us he values marriage. And as a christian, we should too. And I totally agree with that. But there seems to be only two places in the Bible that talks about abuse. Right. And affairs. And it’s like, okay, some people say, no, all divorce is wrong. And then some will say, if you do those. You really have to try to endure it. Yeah. And so then the question becomes, what does that mean? What does that even mean? So I think a lot of people are stuck. So you were talking about widen your influence. There we go. I’m sorry, I need to finish this thought or I will lose it. And that is my avatar. Even though this is built for men and women, was a single lady who lives in Kansas. She’s 38, she has a couple of kids and she’s married to a deacon. And the deacon is very lording over her at home. Okay. He’s wife, submit to your husband kind of guy. And he drinks. Closet drinks. They can’t let the baptist church know that he drinks. And then every once in a while he’ll hit her when she deserves it. That’s it. Only when she deserves it, yeah, and she is miserable. She’s abused and she thinks I’m stuck. What will happen if we leave? I live in a small town, I don’t even have a job. She feels stuck. I’m talking to her. Yeah, that’s who I hope. I know I have men. Listen, sure. But I’m talking to that person because I feel so sorry for somebody being stuck. Feeling stuck. Not being stuck. Feeling stuck. Feeling stuck. Yeah. Sorry I interrupt you, but I had to get that out. I took the long way around the world to get to that thought. Right. But anyway, so that’s the person I’m aiming at. And I want to let them know that if they’re thinking about getting a divorce, they’re not a slave to their denominational teaching or that pastor, or their husband for that matter. My argument is when you’re physically abused or you see your kids, I mean, grab a suitcase and get the hell out. I’m not saying throw your theology out, but I’m saying you’re not throwing your theology out by getting out. Yeah. God didn’t ask you to endure getting beat. God didn’t ask your kids to go through that. So his theology stays high. God is a God of mercy. Literally. God says he values truth and mercy equally. Pastors value truth sometimes over mercy and they preach from the truth. But I’m here to say, no, God has mercy on you and he is not asking you to endure that nonsense.

Yeah, I mean, it was in a book somewhere. I don’t know what book it was. So this is not my thought, but I loved it. And it said that a lot of churches, a lot of christians, we value marriage over the health and wellness of the individuals 100% right. So like an individual could be just like being destroyed. Right. But the church a lot of times is saying, well, it doesn’t matter. Marriage is more important, not the health and wellness of the individual people. Now, that’s not an excuse to just get out. I’m not saying that, but if you look at yourself and you go, okay, I feel like I’m just being crushed. That’s important. That is important. And you should widen your circle. You should talk to a counselor, you should talk to a therapist. Don’t keep all that to yourself. And I think when a woman is scared to step out and say something, it’s really hard, honestly, to make good decisions. Because the best way I could describe what I felt like, it was kind of like my mind was wrapped in gauze and I couldn’t see everything totally clearly. You’re clouded and you’re tired and you’re playing a defense mechanism game of just let. What is that, Stockholm syndrome? A little bit of like, I’m just trying to get along or not get beat by saying the wrong thing. So I am just going to try to yell at, or yell at belittle. Can’t get anything right, right? Yeah. Okay. This is part of the reason this podcast exists. Not everybody has a wise friend. It’s just true. It’s just some people don’t see a counselor. I saw a counselor in secret for like a year. That’s a good answer. There’s somebody you can talk to. There’s somebody. There’s somebody out there. And I would also say, now, by the way, do I have any experience in this? No, but I do work with sex trafficking organizations. There are a lot of nonprofits out there who will take a woman with her children. Sure. And help them start over, put them on their feet, protect them, and it’s like, well, he’ll kill me. Well, I mean, unfortunately, yes, that does happen. But in general, you have options. They may not be easy, right? And it may not feel like you do, it may not feel like you do, and it’s good to go talk to someone. I totally agree.

OK, so this is why I have my avatar, because I believe that the deacon is going to hold more weight at his church. So I always tell women and men both, I’m talking to both, but my avatar, the woman, to go talk to their church, I think it’s horrible in the way God wants our flocks to work, that it would be horrible for a pastor look up and say, you all getting divorced. I didn’t even know you all were having marital problem? That feels not fair to him. Who’s supposed to be a protector of his flock. You didn’t even give him a chance to help. That’s true. And the other part is, if he has horrible theology, he’s going to be like, well, are you submitting to your husband? Yeah. When the answer is, well, he’s hitting me. Well, yeah, it’s like, well, no, he’s hitting me. A good pastor would say, come to my house tonight, we’re locked in the door, and I’m going to tell Jethro to Jethro. I don’t know. That’s not my avatar, but I made that up. Sorry, people from Kansas, not all your deacons are named Jethro. But that’s how that worked.

OK, so let’s talk about the other side for a minute. The quick to divorce people, and I don’t know anybody who’s really quick. Okay, let’s be honest. Most people in general takes a little time, fight to some degree, right? But I would say they may hold their view of marriage a little more looser than some meaning. They use phrases like, well, God just wants me happy. I deserve to be happy. That’s not biblical. Not biblical at all, but I hear it. The other one I hear, I’d love you to speak into this, is I don’t want my kids to grow up in an unloving home and to see this so that they’ll think this is normal and model it. I’m doing it for the kids. I’ve heard that quite a bit. It’s worded a lot of different ways, but it’s like, this is best for the kids to get out of this house, and they need to see their mom happy, they need to see their dad happy, or they need to quit all watch all this fighting. Well, my argument would be like, yeah, all that’s true. Doesn’t mean you got to get a divorce. How about you start acting right as a married couple, not throw in the towel. Right? I mean, that didn’t even cross my mind when I was going through all of it. I think. What’s the flip side? Maybe you could show them what it looks like to restore your marriage. Yeah. Give them a success story that when things are tough, here’s what that looks like. Right? I mean, that’s a better thing for your kids to see than you. Just a pie in the sky. Oh, well, if you’re happy, you’re living a good life. Yeah. That’s a terrible example for a child. Isn’t that a tough. Yeah, I’m not saying it’s easy. Oh, no. Right. Here’s my thing. The theology of this is a tough one, is Christianity screams that because we are all slaves to sin and that we have a redeemer, that we should have joy and this eternal joy, and we should talk about joy, joy, joy. And the tension of that is, well, we live in a broken world, right? So it’s like this idea of like, well, the God wants me to be happy and joyful and whatever, and I’m not. Therefore, I’m going to fix my situation to be. It’s like. Think you’re getting that theology wrong?

Yeah. I mean, I think that when I was going through deep, deep, deep valleys where I was like, I can’t see in front of me, it is dark. I don’t know what’s happening. And I really just felt like I was just holding onto the Lord’s hand, just like, what’s the next step? Just leave me? Because I don’t. Yeah. But there was still down in me a joy, knowing that the Lord has me, right? One day I’m going to be with the Lord, right? This isn’t the end. And so I think there’s that kind of deep seated joy. Not, was I having fun? Absolutely not. Nothing about it was fun. Nothing about it was fun. I was crying my eyes out pretty much every day. I don’t know if I would say I was depressed, but just going, you’re in a funk and a fog. It was horrible when I was trying to navigate through and the healing after and all that type of stuff, but I think still, deep down, there was a joy. So I think that we kind of get it misconstrued of, well, I should be happy and I should be having fun and everything should be great, but that’s also not even like real life. I mean, let’s look at Paul. You know what I mean? He had joy and he was in prison. So no matter what you’re walking through, no matter how terrible it is, we can still have joy deep down. Yeah, this is a rabbit trail, but it’s part of this theology. The Bible’s not a spotlight, not a floodlight. Meaning God doesn’t tell us how to raise teenagers. He doesn’t even really talk about the difference in genders that he gave us. I wired women this way, so men, therefore, he just leaves a lot of stuff out. Right. We should kind of made a bunch of that stuff up or just kind of figured out what we can figure out what we can, right. That’s a better way to. I believe the Bible is true, but not all truths in the Bible. God didn’t put everything in there. It doesn’t mean it’s not his truth. He just didn’t put it in. I say that to say that when it comes to joy and marriage, whatever, give us just a chapter on marriage. Just one chapter to help us, because. We see this joy, because that’s what it is like. Well, Paul was in prison. Okay, well, tell me about Paul’s marriage. Did him and his Wife fight? They probably did. Sure. Yeah. And did he come to the table one day just like shaking his head, what’s wrong? Oh, my wife, she’s so mad. I’m taking all these trips about saying Paul was married or not. I don’t know. It’s irrelevant. But it’s. The point is that the Bible’s really, really silent. And there’s the vow itself that says, I am going to love this person. Which, by the way, you can love and you can, like, there are seasons for everything, but it’s a commitment. And then I guess the question is, when are you allowed. Oh, that’s a good way to put it. When are you allowed to break the commitment? And then when are you supposed to endure or how long to endure whatever. Because just because somebody has affair, you may have the right to divorce, doesn’t mean you have to. No, I mean, I have some friends that the husband had a divorce and. They had an affair. Sorry. It’s okay. I’ll just make sure. Sorry. No. Had an affair and they worked through it and they’ve been happily married. Had more kids after. That’s right. All that type of stuff. Because you start your marriage over and it’s probably better the second round. Yeah, every story definitely looks different. I mean, could I answer that question of when are you allowed? I can’t. There’s not. I think.

Well, okay, that’s another layer to this is I’m a conservative liberal and a liberal conservative. Like, I’m in the middle on stuff. So you’re a moderate? Well, I like to think when the Bible’s clear, I’m conservative. Okay. When the Bible’s not, I take the stance of like, well, God’s smart. If he left that vague. I see he knows there’s exceptions and so he’s not going to give you a rule. Like, he doesn’t say, I want everybody to meet at 930 on Sunday morning. Well, he didn’t put that in there. You know why? He knows there’s plagues and wars. And you can also just meet at 1030 and you can meet. Yeah, whatever. It could be another day. Right. That war is vague. Well, I believe that’s sort of the thing, the principle of divorce. He didn’t say go get a divorce when these things happen. But I think there’s a lot of things that already. This is controversial. There are a longer list of acceptable reasons to get a divorce than just affair, abuse, abandonment and abandonment. Because if you take those further, what is abandonment? Is abandonment. Sexual abandonment? Is abandonment. I left the house. Is abandonment I left the marriage. We’re just roommates, right. And abuse. Abuse, what does that mean? Physical abuse, verbal abuse, abuse of the kids, but not me. Right. You know what I mean? It’s a slippery, totally slippery. It’s an expanded list that most pastors don’t really walk down. They just keep the truth part of keep your marriage. Right. And I think I want my cake and eat it, too. I want people to feel free to explore leaving a bad situation, a really bad situation. I want them to dig in and try to fight longer for sure, because the grass is not greener. It’s not. And then I want people to really attempt to restore and take their vow really seriously all at the same time. That’s a lot to ask, but I think you should do that as a Libra. I think those are all three things that you should do before you consider.

Do you remember the episode one where I liken the people who are in this tough season of their life? I liken it till 911 where you’re at the top of the tower, the world trade. They’re burning, you’re going to burn to death. You know, you’re going to burn to death. And if you jump, you’re going to die of hitting concrete at a couple of hundred miles an hour. And there’s a point where you stay, stay till that heat gets so bad that you’re like, I’ll jump. Right? I mean, that’s how I felt. I jumped, but I knew the Lord was going to catch me. I just didn’t kind of know like when, where. That’s exactly right. What is